Dyeing My Naturals With Kakishibu (Persimmon)

[Deleted]

Disclaimer - This thread is the work of a rank novice - proceed at your own risk. 

All this talk of persimmon dyed wefts, Stinky throwing his Pimas in coffee etc got me curious....and my Naturals were hanging on the rack looking lonely. Cool looking jeans but I don't wear them much because I'm always trying to beat the crap out of some pair of indigo colored pantaloons. Additionally, every time I put on the naturals I get something on them. Every.Flippin.Time. Then, I have to spot clean them and wash them, they aren't like natural canvas ala painters pants....natural denim just gets freaking dirty. Maybe I'm just a slob. Point is, the Naturals were either going to get sold or subjected to the following experiment. I might do this to my Pimas as well....

Very condensed back story - Using the magic of the interwebs, I read up on the processes and a couple suppliers of Japanese persimmon based "dye" (it's not a true dye), Kakishibu. I'd talked a bit with Wisdom and others on the G live feed and here about doing this and it seemed like something interesting to check out. Kakishibu is interesting stuff, it gets darker with age and sun exposure, tends to show wear in a similar way to indigo, has many variables in appearance depending on how it's applied, sun exposure, how it's worn and has all sorts of other cool properties you can go look up if you're interested. I was informed early on that I would not get a super consistent color on a finished garment. No big deal, I pressed on. They're just pants.

NOTE - This is day one. I plan on doing 2-3 "overdyes" until these are as dark as I want them. 

I decided to use a hang and dry in the sun method (there are many others). Step one was to prep them such that I could hang them without clamping them, as that would create "white" spots and interfere with distribution of the Kakishibu. The additional requirement here is you need to be able to flip the garment or the Kakishibu will pool at the bottom as it dries, giving you a light to dark gradient. I used some cord in the belt loops and (gasp) PIERCED THE SELVAGE and ran cord through the inner cuffs. Don't hate me guys, it's for science. 

[Deleted]

Next, I mixed the Kakishibu powder with water in the bin I planned to use for soaking the jeans. Note the bin is big enough to catch the runoff. This is important as this stuff is not cheap and if you want to do multiple applications, you need to catch the runoff or you'll waste a lot. Another note, as this is a natural fermented product, it has a pretty strong odor. Didn't bother me but it's pretty intense. I have two kids. I'm battle hardened against being a wuss about odors. Besides, the odor goes away after a few rinses I'm told. Just be wary if you're one of those ultra olfactory sensitive types. 

[Deleted]

Then it was GO time. I folded the jeans into the Kakishibu, moving them around a bit to get good distribution etc. I had no idea what I was doing, but I did it well and with a smile. After about 15 minutes of soaking, agitating and poking at my no longer Naturals with a wooden spoon, I hung them and started the process of flipping them to get a good distribution of dye as it dried/ran off. I also intentionally did this in direct sun as everything I was told and read indicated that sun exposure darkens the Kakishibu both during drying and after during wear.

The jeans are wet in the pictures and look very uniform. As they dried, they became more inconsistent with the seamed areas retaining more Kakishibu and staying darker. Overall they became lighter in color than I want the finished product to be so I plan to re soak tomorrow. I want a color along the lines of the "wet" pics here, a rusty brown. I didn't have time for pics after drying (had to go to work and earn a living).

OK, more tomorrow..... 

[ickes]

dude....those actually turned out pretty effin good
if I do say so myself. they look almost like a pair of Downtown Browns...maybe a little more orange than the DBs but damn bro, those look good.

Guns and Money did a pair of persimmon jeans, I'll post a link shortly. How much did the dye set you back?

[ickes]

here's a link to a pic of the Guns and Money persimmon...just for reference for you. Like I said with yours, they are real close to the Downtown Browns IMO.

Keep us posted on these, I'm curious to see how they turn out over time and with more dips in the dye.

[DigDug]

Looks like dried Tabacoo, very nice.

[ickes]

oops..forgot the link..lol.

there you go.

[Deleted]

Yo Matt, thanks Man! 

They looked good wet, as they dried the color went to a more tan/orange color that I don't like as much. I'm going to keep re dipping until I get as close to the rust in the wet pics as possible.

The dye was about 60 bucks for the amount I needed :0 but there is enough to do my Pimas as well as a t shirt or maybe the neighbors cat lol...

(part of this is research for a project I'm working with the GF so it was going to happen regardless)

G and M jeans look awesome btw...

Thanks DigDug! good description of the color. 

OK brahs...crashing for the night. 

[Deleted]

This turned out alot better than many rust dyed naturals

[Dirty_Denim]

Looks great.  Tender does a lot of this where the dying almost always looks like this 

www.selectism.com/2011/09/21/tender-co-for-tenue-de-nimes-denim-duck-canvas/
understudyshop.com/products/type138strap-backjeanswattletwill

[stinky]

Oct 10, 2014 2:12:24 GMT -6 @untucked said:

This turned out alot better than many rust dyed naturals

Didn't you try to use vinegroon on yours?

[Deleted]

Oct 10, 2014 7:30:24 GMT -6 stinky said:

Oct 10, 2014 2:12:24 GMT -6 @untucked said:

This turned out alot better than many rust dyed naturals

Didn't you try to use vinegroon on yours?

Yeah.....

[wisdom]

Oct 10, 2014 0:59:41 GMT -6 @stevekas said:

Then it was GO time. I folded the jeans into the Kakishibu, moving them around a bit to get good distribution etc. I had no idea what I was doing, but I did it well and with a smile. After about 15 minutes of soaking, agitating and poking at my no longer Naturals with a wooden spoon, I hung them and started the process of flipping them to get a good distribution of dye as it dried/ran off. I also intentionally did this in direct sun as everything I was told and read indicated that sun exposure darkens the Kakishibu both during drying and after during wear.

The jeans are wet in the pictures and look very uniform. As they dried, they became more inconsistent with the seamed areas retaining more Kakishibu and staying darker. Overall they became lighter in color than I want the finished product to be so I plan to re soak tomorrow. I want a color along the lines of the "wet" pics here, a rusty brown. I didn't have time for pics after drying (had to go to work and earn a living).

OK, more tomorrow..... 

Holy crow.. those are looking NICE!!!! We're going to see some massive inflation on naturals when word gets out about these How'd you manage to prevent the things from getting all streaky? I find irregular fabrics darken with kakishibu more where they take the longest to dry. In my experience, the rigid stiffness you get from the kakishibu softens at about the same pace the smell goes away.

Just a word of advice regarding the re-dip.. if you keep your projects out in the sun, they get MUCH darker after about 2-3 days of exposure to the sunlight. You may want to let the kakishibu run its course before doing a second and third dip. The strongest change happens over the first few days.. the majority of color change happens within the first few months. Also.. I've found the stuff to be pretty stable, but I only make enough to fit in a quart size jar that can be sealed and stored in a dark place. I'm sure if you put a lid on the pail and store it in a cool dark place it'll keep. I've heard kakishibu liquid can eventually coagulate and congeal.. haven't had this happen, but don't exactly have that much more experience with this than you.

Awesome work, SteveKas! Are you going to share the link to your project with Chris at Kakishibui?
-\Visdom

[stinky]

Steve, this is really cool. Might be a good project for a pair of LD 1776 Naturals.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the props all!

Stinky, go for it.

Wisdom, I hear you on waiting. That thought crossed my mind but things got streaky as the pants dried so I might try to even things out manually (brush) or via redip. I'm not too worried about going too dark as even the darkest Kakishibu fabric I've come across online still looks awesome to me.

Thanks for the tips on storage. I made two liters and wht's left is in a sealed plastic container in the fridge.

And yes I'm going to share with Chris, thank you for mentioning that. She was a huge help and I feel bad for not mentioning her. Here's her link guys...she's super nice but very busy so if you drop her a note give a day or two for a response.

www.kakishibui.com/

[Deleted]

@stevekas awesome project, thanks for sharing.

[colerussell]

Seriously, mate. Dope work dying that denim. If the mix weren't so darn expensive, I'd imitate your work!

[DigDug]

Next time your using this again. Try a old pair of blue jeans. I'm interested how they would turn out.

[Griffin]

So you can stain wood with it.... Would be cool to stain my arrows with some of the awesone colors she has on the site. Up until now ive only tried soy and balsamico from natural staining.

[stinky]

I wonder what it would do to veg tan leather?

[stinky]

holy crap guys, check out this jacket:
bandanna-almanac.com/2013/11/25/jackknife-outfitters-kurashiki-canvas-kakishibu/

[Deleted]

Oct 10, 2014 14:15:02 GMT -6 stinky said:

I wonder what it would do to veg tan leather?

someone made a pair of rough out kakishibu dyed shoes here

[Deleted]

So, day two....trying to keep in more brief tonight so I can get all this uploaded....thanks for all the comments I'll respond after this.

Starting with pics of what the naturals looked liked after drying fully after the first dye cycle. I didn't like them as much as the still damp tones/colors. The rust/brown was gone and was replaced with a more tan/pink color. Not bad just not what I was after.....
. 

[Deleted]

Dye cycle two. The Kakishibu had been sitting mixed over night and smelled much more pungent and the color had become more rusty. Next time I do this I'll mix it a day ahead and let it sit.

Anyway, here's what I ended up with after the second soak. Still wet....one pic even has a super artistic "drip capture"

[Deleted]

While watching the Kakishibu dry, I realized I had enough left to MAYBE do my Pima Fires. So instead of thinking about it too much, I just threw them in the soak bin. There was just enough to get the jeans soaked. Nothing remained. Luckily the Pimas are all over the map, streaky, slubby and inconsistent, so I wasn't so worried about things being perfect.