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Post by Old26 on Oct 7, 2014 9:42:00 GMT -6
What do you guys think?
Italian Chore Coat.
18oz Zim denim. Contrast too.
I'm on hiatus until I see some LD, but those two look interesting...if not expensive.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2014 9:47:11 GMT -6
I don't see myself ever drop more then $120 for a pair of Gustin indigo jeans, except the 26oz. Frankly, if I want to spend $175 for an indigo, I pay more for the Japanease brand.
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Post by matt on Oct 7, 2014 9:50:48 GMT -6
I like the idea of the chore coat, but I'd be more apt to do that in a trucker style or a type 2/type 3 from our other denim friends with a thread here  |
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Post by Old26 on Oct 7, 2014 9:51:46 GMT -6
I can't abide by the "size up" thing. For the money, no way I'm playing roulette with jeans in that price range.
As for the Chore coat, I don't like the cut/style, but that material would make a great shirt or Trucker...
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Post by matt on Oct 7, 2014 9:58:54 GMT -6
Legit question regarding Gustin - have we (we meaning the die hards in their community) reached a point of saturation with their denim? Look at all the unique drops from G of late, and the jeans aren't flying "off the shelves" as they once did. Is that a price point concern or something else? Honest question, not judging one company vs. another. Just curious (marketing brain is working hard this morning).
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Post by Old26 on Oct 7, 2014 10:01:38 GMT -6
Legit question regarding Gustin - have we (we meaning the die hards in their community) reached a point of saturation with their denim? Look at all the unique drops from G of late, and the jeans aren't flying "off the shelves" as they once did. Is that a price point concern or something else? Me, yes. I am now looking for something different. I can't wear the shirts, so that's out. I've got all the belts I need, so that's out. Denims - I'm holding now for other things to see what's out there. I've got too many denims now and whatever I add to this has to be unique going forward. Honestly, I'm really going for some work shirts and other denim Truckers I see in other spots now. I don't want to have a closet with only one maker. Just not me. |
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Post by Mattbert on Oct 7, 2014 10:04:02 GMT -6
I can't abide by the "size up" thing. For the money, no way I'm playing roulette with jeans in that price range. As for the Chore coat, I don't like the cut/style, but that material would make a great shirt or Trucker... I'm with you there. Just about tapped out on the number of jeans I can have in the closet without wanting to kick my own ass. Already past the point where Wifebert is giving me the hairy eyeball every time a package shows up at the door. Anyway, point being: it would take something really special for me to pull the trigger on another pair of Gustins at this point. That Zim18 is a special-looking fabric, but since I live in the tropics there's just no way I'm going to wear something that heavy as often as it deserves to be worn. I'd still be tempted at the "normal" Zim price of $135 (most recent campaigns for 15-oz. and 10-oz.), but at $175 it's just a bridge too far. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2014 10:09:32 GMT -6
Is Lawless selling the same denim for $100 less? I'm still waiting on my Grey Silks/Super Heavies and people to receive theirs Lawless denims and review them before making a decision on jumping ship. But Gustin is definitely getting too pricey for me now.
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Post by jbreitenbucher on Oct 7, 2014 10:09:50 GMT -6
For me, Gustin is pricing themselves out of the market. I got in for quality selvedge at extremely good prices. The material is still excellent, but the construction issues and general silence on Gustin's part don't justify the prices.
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Post by DigDug on Oct 7, 2014 10:12:44 GMT -6
I have what I need at this point as far as jeans. At $175 + 25 for hemming/shipping I'll spend another $100 and buy just about anything I want. I'll get a custom measurement from the staff, get them within a week, and a custom denim of my choice.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2014 10:14:27 GMT -6
I cannot see myself to buy any more dark indigo jeans except it is very heavy weight with Lawless type of pricing. I can still see myself buying some special color or pattern (herringbone) indigo jeans but not at the current Gustin prices.
Shirt wise, it is so out because of the fit. After trying on my very first Gustin shirt today, if I can canceled my two Gustin work shirts now, I will do it. The CPO is also out now because of the fit. I do like the Chore coat in those new non canvas fabric but I don't see myself to pay $140 for a coat like that. I am not a brand whore but would rather to pay more to get the real thing. I do have two belts from Gustin and do like the CXL belt. The classic belt is so so in quality and will not buy another.
To sum it up, I think I am totally out of Gustin until some totally new offerings.
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Post by matt on Oct 7, 2014 10:20:56 GMT -6
To counter the price point discussion, I see that Gustin craftfully uses the language "true investment pair of denim" to describe the new Zim 18s. It's not positioning the denim in the traditional "value" offer. Note no price reference to cost if purchased elsewhere. Again, not critiquing at all, I think I understand the position of this offering.
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Post by jray on Oct 7, 2014 10:25:33 GMT -6
I'm done buying for now. Have my SH's on the way from Gustin and the brown weft's and 17 oz slubs from Lawless ordered. I don't need any more denim. I think Gustin needs new customers and are pricing themselves to high for me anyway.
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Post by ickes on Oct 7, 2014 10:36:55 GMT -6
I agree with all points here, good points fellas. Also the sizing issue and G's lack of admission and/or ambition to do anything about it....not even a comment about it...is putting me off.
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Post by matt on Oct 7, 2014 10:38:08 GMT -6
I agree with all points here, good points fellas. Also the sizing issue and G's lack of admission and/or ambition to do anything about it....not even a comment about it...is putting me off. That's a powerful quote coming from Cody...I mean, Ickes. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2014 10:40:13 GMT -6
Legit question regarding Gustin - have we (we meaning the die hards in their community) reached a point of saturation with their denim? Look at all the unique drops from G of late, and the jeans aren't flying "off the shelves" as they once did. Is that a price point concern or something else? Honest question, not judging one company vs. another. Just curious (marketing brain is working hard this morning). i think part of any perceived slow down in product movement is that they're offering so many more fabrics and products now. back when many of us started backing items there were only jeans, and perhaps a couple of shirts...and they were only dropped twice a week. now there is usually some sort of drop 4x/week. that said...most denim offerings are still funding with ~6 days left, and some like the silks are still going surprisingly fast. personally i'm at saturation with denim. between what i have in hand and what is en-route from LD, it would have to be incredibly special for me to back. a heavy NIxP might do it...but the $150+ pricetag would give me pause...mostly in hopes that Roman could pull in a similar/same fabric for half of that price. (assuming the LD fit works for me) i thought i'd be backing more Gustin shirts because the fabrics do look nice...but after receiving the one i have the quality is not what i expected for the price or raves that they get from some of the forum members. i may still back a belt one day...but there are a lot of interesting belts out there for similar prices from smaller makers. there's a good chance i'll back the cpo if it looks good for a decent price...but i do think they missed optimal timing for that release as most people won't get it until after winter is upon us. |
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Post by davelewis on Oct 7, 2014 10:40:27 GMT -6
I have to agree with just about everything said guys. How many pairs of indigo jeans does one need? How about something unique. Zim cotton is not a big deal to me, or worth the upcharge. But I'm sure some will bite on them because of the "investment". I would think that with the trend of raising prices, they would be taking care of sizing issues, and QC, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Roman has said that they measure each garment as it leaves the sewing table, to ensure that there are no surprises.
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Post by davelewis on Oct 7, 2014 10:43:53 GMT -6
Funny how there are a huge amount of sizing issues going on over at the Gustin board, and like you say, no response. But, when we start to talk about competitors, they are there like stink on shit.
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Post by Dirty_Denim on Oct 7, 2014 10:51:22 GMT -6
With Gustin going with some of the prices that are going up it looks like he is looking to widen his customer base by bringing in higher end fabrics that are priced closer to the middle of the pack brands like Tellason & 3sixteen. Lets face it most of the world puts price equal to value so with that said having higher prices means better product in the eyes of those people which means the denim aficionado customer who currently doesn't respect Gustin will now value Gustin...If that makes sense. I mean 1000 pounds of feathers is the same as a 1000 pounds of iron to me.
Don't do it Gustin , stay true to what you are..Naked & Famous is not trying to be Samurai & neither should you want to be anything but Gustin
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2014 10:51:31 GMT -6
Funny how there are a huge amount of sizing issues going on over at the Gustin board, and like you say, no response. But, when we start to talk about competitors, they are there like stink on shit. to be fair...they did allow quite a bit of competitor discussion on the forum for a long while. i was surprised at times at how much they did let slide...or at least how much people were willing to discuss considering that it was a G hosted/funded/basically unmoderated site. they only time they stepped in was once people started asking very specifically what others were ordering from LD, what customization options they'd recommend, etc. also many of us talking about sizing issues or potential sizing issues (myself included) have never actually experienced any such issue...but..you'd think there would be some statement regarding how their new QC policies have been a success/failure, if they still have work to do...why they're recommending up-sizing for certain fabrics...etc. |
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Post by wisdom on Oct 7, 2014 10:56:38 GMT -6
For me, Gustin is pricing themselves out of the market. I got in for quality selvedge at extremely good prices. The material is still excellent, but the construction issues and general silence on Gustin's part don't justify the prices. Agreed.. Gustin still has appeal, but price competitiveness is eroding. If Lawless can deliver anywhere close to the perception, hope, and hype out there, Gustin will find themselves in no-man's land between low cost, good quality, large variety and high cost, impeccable quality, moderate variety/availability. I don't know much about the denim industry's margins, but if the majority of cost is labor, and not material, these elevated prices are reaping Gustin an absolute windfall. Let's just say Gustin makes a 20% margin at $100.. this means their cost is $80.. let's say fabric is 40% of that (even though it's likely lower).. this means the fabric costs about $32 for a pair of jeans. If the price of the denim is double for an 18oz Zimbabwean weave, it brings the material cost to $64 / pair of jeans.. add the $40 for labor and you're at $104, all told. At $175, the margin becomes $71, which is a 68% margin! My assumptions may be way off here, but if Lawless can make a profit (one worth pursuing) at $80 or so, I'm guessing if my guesses are off, they're on the conservative side and the margin is likely higher. Additionally, Gustin doesn't lay out any of their own cash as we are charged as soon as funding succeeds and they carry no inventory in anticipation of demand (only inventory for realized demand). Lawless appears to hold an inventory of denim, so there is some sort of cash outlay required. If you look at Gustin and Lawless in their simplest forms, Gustin sells materials and Lawless sells a service. Gustin makes money buying materials and reselling them in a different form with some sort of value added. Lawless makes money by putting labor in to material to convert it into a semi-customized product. The two serve the same markets, but are actually at different points in the supply chain. In theory, Lawless could be Gustin's sew-shop, or Gustin could be Lawless' front-end. They see each other as competitors because they serve the same market, but in actuality, I believe they could be stronger as partners (yeah, I know.. it'll never happen). Could you imagine how excited we'd all be about Lawless if they co-opted the people who manage Gustin's supply chain and designed their marketplace/website? Could you imagine how excited we'd be about Gustin if they offered Lawless customization options, and hopefully more accurate pattern sets? This would also allow both companies to preserve higher margins. I'm not advocating partnership.. I just think either company could benefit by evolving, rather than resisting. I don't begrudge anyone an opportunity to make a profit, and the market pays what a product is worth to them, not what it costs to make.. but if there's such a large amount of opportunity at a high margin, competitors will naturally enter the market. I support both companies for their strengths, but I await the kickstarter from the enterprising individual who can figure out how to put the two together. -\Visdom |
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Post by DigDug on Oct 7, 2014 10:57:39 GMT -6
I see the sizing issues as a Flaw in the overall business model. I don't think Gustin wants to make a mockup of every denim they offer or have a bunch of different patterns to compensate for how a denim sews up. Now that we (most of us on these Forums) have the staples as far as jeans go, we're dialing in our Fit,Type of Denim, construction, etc.... For that Ill be looking to some of the top tier brands ( I only will want/need one).
It does bother me that there hasn't been another responce (got one a few weeks, maybe a month ago).
As far as Lawless goes, time will tell. I wonder how many, how they will handle any sizing problems. Only time will tell. I'll let you guys put them to the test.
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Post by matt on Oct 7, 2014 11:03:11 GMT -6
With Gustin going with some of the prices that are going up it looks like he is looking to widen his customer base by bringing in higher end fabrics that are priced closer to the middle of the pack brands like Tellason & 3sixteen. Lets face it most of the world puts price equal to value so with that said having higher prices means better product in the eyes of those people which means the denim aficionado customer who currently doesn't respect Gustin will now value Gustin...If that makes sense. I mean 1000 pounds of feathers is the same as a 1000 pounds of iron to me. Don't do it Gustin , stay true to what you are..Naked & Famous is not trying to be Samurai & neither should you want to be anything but Gustin Great point, but a question - what makes 3Sixteen denim any different than the offerings from Lawless or Gustin? 3Sixteen offers a 14.5 oz. from Kuroki Mills in Japan. I'm buying a custom made pair of 18.5 oz. Kurokis from Lawless for 1/3 of the price. 14.5 doesn't seem to justify unique aside from who sewed them up, right? I would counter that with Roman's transparency, the standard offerings from Japanese mills are no longer deemed "higher end fabrics", and merely denim mark up. You do make an excellent point, however, regarding positioning a brand to appeal to a higher-end clientele. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2014 11:13:02 GMT -6
Let's just say Gustin makes a 20% margin at $100.. this means their cost is $80.. let's say fabric is 40% of that (even though it's likely lower).. this means the fabric costs about $32 for a pair of jeans. If the price of the denim is double for an 18oz Zimbabwean weave, it brings the material cost to $64 / pair of jeans.. add the $40 for labor and you're at $104, all told. At $175, the margin becomes $71, which is a 68% margin! this holds true if their sew shop charges a static per unit price and not a rate scaled by fabric/weight (though your overall point still stands) Could you imagine how excited we'd all be about Lawless if they co-opted the people who manage Gustin's supply chain and designed their marketplace/website? -\Visdom hmm...maybe not Gustin's website considering how lazy they are with product description copy, photo captions, photos, searching/filtering, etc. (but again...point taken) |
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Post by Dirty_Denim on Oct 7, 2014 11:17:27 GMT -6
With Gustin going with some of the prices that are going up it looks like he is looking to widen his customer base by bringing in higher end fabrics that are priced closer to the middle of the pack brands like Tellason & 3sixteen. Lets face it most of the world puts price equal to value so with that said having higher prices means better product in the eyes of those people which means the denim aficionado customer who currently doesn't respect Gustin will now value Gustin...If that makes sense. I mean 1000 pounds of feathers is the same as a 1000 pounds of iron to me. Don't do it Gustin , stay true to what you are..Naked & Famous is not trying to be Samurai & neither should you want to be anything but Gustin Great point, but a question - what makes 3Sixteen denim any different than the offerings from Lawless or Gustin? 3Sixteen offers a 14.5 oz. from Kuroki Mills in Japan. I'm buying a custom made pair of 18.5 oz. Kurokis from Lawless for 1/3 of the price. 14.5 doesn't seem to justify unique aside from who sewed them up, right? I would counter that with Roman's transparency, the standard offerings from Japanese mills are no longer deemed "higher end fabrics", and merely denim mark up. You do make an excellent point, however, regarding positioning a brand to appeal to a higher-end clientele. Thats my point 1000 pounds of feathers is the same as 1000 pounds of iron. People do not see it that way because they will continue to buy 14,5oz for $200 from say N&F when they could get it for $80 from Gustin. My point abt positioning is basically saying price the stuff higher to give the illusion its a higher end brand like the others. I rather buy something well made but at a lower price & care less abt a label on it but this is not the case with most people. Of course I am just assuming this is what Gustin is doing by raising prices |
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