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Post by jackgordon on Mar 3, 2015 20:35:06 GMT -6
www.rawrdenim.com/2015/03/how-the-trans-pacific-partnership-could-hurt-made-usa/An interesting denim-related angle to the many downfalls of the Trans-Pacific Partnership. It seems like this deal (and an equivalent deal across the Atlantic to Europe) is being sneaked through legislature across the globe. For some reason, they don't want us to know what's really going down. If you thought American manufacture was in a pretty bad shape, you ain't seen nothing yet.
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Post by wisdom on Mar 4, 2015 5:02:56 GMT -6
I disagree that the American economy, or any economy, must depend upon policies that reduce the competitiveness of other economies in order to survive. I've worked a good portion of my career helping western companies (US and Europe, mostly) compete globally by leveraging advantages other than (but including) cost.
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Post by gaseousclay on Mar 4, 2015 7:53:52 GMT -6
Interesting article but i'm not certain it holds any weight. guess we'll have to wait and see how this plays out. if anything, i'd say there's been a resurgence in the US manufacturing industry given the increasing number of startups that source domestic manufacturing. My thought is that when you look at the denim world, especially high end brands, the cost of importing fabric is already built into the company's equity. I think this is why some brands command higher prices than others. For example, most small selvedge denim companies source their fabric from Japanese mills (and also from White Oak Cone Mills), and you often see similar fabrics being used for denim products. Some of these companies inflate their prices to reflect the brand's worth - ie. Rogue Territory vs 3sixteen vs N&F vs Gustin, etc). If I see two US companies, both of whom are producing selvedge denim made from White Oak Cone mills cotton, but one of those companies is charging $200 for their jeans and the other is charging $80, how does the TPP effect the consumer? Perhaps I don't understand the economics of this as much as i'd like but the article sounds alarmist at best.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 9:39:48 GMT -6
compete globally by leveraging advantages other than (but including) cost. Isn't this a contradictory statement? I won't pretend to understand economics, but we (the USA) need to be careful of the fine print and consequences of this kind of legislation. NAFTA on the surface sounded good, but it led to the loss of many jobs. We can't and shouldn't try to compete with, or open the doors to nations that pay workers very little. |
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Post by exophobe on Mar 7, 2015 9:57:45 GMT -6
But you've seen here how people will choose the $8 Chinese/Indian t-shirt over the $14 American made one knowing the difference and based on cost. It's more than trade agreements (though that's part of what allows the low cost of import), people have to take responsibility for their purchasing decisions.
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Post by wisdom on Mar 7, 2015 10:19:10 GMT -6
compete globally by leveraging advantages other than (but including) cost. Isn't this a contradictory statement? I won't pretend to understand economics, but we (the USA) need to be careful of the fine print and consequences of this kind of legislation. NAFTA on the surface sounded good, but it led to the loss of many jobs. We can't and shouldn't try to compete with, or open the doors to nations that pay workers very little. I see where you're coming from.. "other than" automatically excludes "including." I think you understand what I meant, though.. I was trying to say western manufacturing can compete on factors other than cost.. but can do that, too.. |
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Post by wisdom on Mar 7, 2015 10:21:21 GMT -6
But you've seen here how people will choose the $8 Chinese/Indian t-shirt over the $14 American made one knowing the difference and based on cost. It's more than trade agreements (though that's part of what allows the low cost of import), people have to take responsibility for their purchasing decisions. Agree.. this forum has enough evidence that many people prefer value to price. Look at how ickes ' opinion of IH changed  How many of us would swap 2-3 pairs of so-so G's or LD's for a pair of IH's? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 10:57:33 GMT -6
I believe most of the members will pay $12 for a made in US t-shirt over $8 foreign made shirt if everything is created equal. I assume you are talking about the G t-shirt and if the shirt fits better with nicer looking material and also don't need to wait 2 months to get, I persoanlly will buy it. There are just so many better options out there.
Regarding TPP, globalization is a bitch and if people doesn't like it now, wait until some Asian countries to start taking away the $100k+ high tech jobs from US and start to innovate themselves. People will really do not like it. Frankly, people needs to stop focusing on bringing lower paying manufacturing jobs back because they are gone and most of them will/should never come back. We need to focus on elavate our overall worker skills in US, so we can compete in this new era.
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Post by exophobe on Mar 7, 2015 11:17:27 GMT -6
I believe most of the members will pay $12 for a made in US t-shirt over $8 foreign made shirt if everything is created equal. I assume you are talking about the G t-shirt and if the shirt fits better with nicer looking material and also don't need to wait 2 months to get, I persoanlly will buy it. There are just so many better options out there. Regarding TPP, globalization is a bitch and if people doesn't like it now, wait until some Asian countries to start taking away the $100k+ high tech jobs from US and start to innovate themselves. People will really do not like it. Frankly, people needs to stop focusing on bringing lower paying manufacturing jobs back because they are gone and most of them will/should never come back. We need to focus on elavate our overall worker skills in US, so we can compete in this new era. Not so much Gustin as other manufacturers in the US using traditional models. There are several options in the 12-20 range that don't get business since you can go to old navy and get 3 for 15 made in Bangladesh. The Gustin is another option, but lengthy discussions on that particular offering revealed many other choices. We put people in thousands of low-paying service jobs peddling foreign goods. A successful manufacturing resurgence would relocate those jobs into higher paying manufacturing jobs, and a more beneficial economy of people able to pay taxes while relying less on government assistance. Not everyone is capable of more advanced work, especially with the state of our education system. It's not a focus on manufacturing jobs, rather a focus on building a stable economy that can support innovation without ignoring that all people aren't innovators. None of this is possible, however, if there's no financial consequence for those profiting from the current system. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 12:06:15 GMT -6
Isn't this a contradictory statement? I won't pretend to understand economics, but we (the USA) need to be careful of the fine print and consequences of this kind of legislation. NAFTA on the surface sounded good, but it led to the loss of many jobs. We can't and shouldn't try to compete with, or open the doors to nations that pay workers very little. I see where you're coming from.. "other than" automatically excludes "including." I think you understand what I meant, though.. I was trying to say western manufacturing can compete on factors other than cost.. but can do that, too.. Actually I didn't follow your meaning. Thanks for the explanation. |
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Post by gaseousclay on May 1, 2015 12:25:56 GMT -6
But you've seen here how people will choose the $8 Chinese/Indian t-shirt over the $14 American made one knowing the difference and based on cost. It's more than trade agreements (though that's part of what allows the low cost of import), people have to take responsibility for their purchasing decisions. agreed. consumers definitely need to take more responsibility with how they spend money. I still believe there's a lot of growth happening in the domestic US made movement. When companies like Rogue Territory, Gustin, 3sixteen & others come around and proudly advertise Made In America as a value added selling point, then you know they're doing something right based on how successful they've been. I've definitely taken a more conscious approach to where I spend my money and on what. Even though price often dictates what we buy it doesn't always figure into the equation for certain goods. For example, when it comes to clothing, there are some things i'm willing to pay a premium for, and these are often times 'buy it for life' items. Of course, there are other low value products like socks & underwear that I refuse to pay a premium for because they don't last very long. Needless to say, i'd still like to know more specifics of this TPP deal that Obama is trying to push through. I'm glad Elizabeth Warren has been riding his ass about it. |
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Post by DigDug on Nov 10, 2016 20:55:43 GMT -6
Not sure if I fully understand this (I'll have to go back and read/watch some more info)
It would seem that this would make US made products more the norm. for US consumers.
If so US made products I'd think would (as has been the case in the past) become more in vogue for foreign buyers.
If I'm understanding this correctly ...?
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Post by exophobe on Nov 10, 2016 21:48:11 GMT -6
Not sure if I fully understand this (I'll have to go back and read/watch some more info) It would seem that this would make US made products more the norm. for US consumers. If so US made products I'd think would (as has been the case in the past) become more in vogue for foreign buyers. If I'm understanding this correctly ...? Wave goodbye to aligned plaid shirts. |
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Post by northcoast on Nov 11, 2016 8:43:13 GMT -6
Not sure if I fully understand this (I'll have to go back and read/watch some more info) It would seem that this would make US made products more the norm. for US consumers. If so US made products I'd think would (as has been the case in the past) become more in vogue for foreign buyers. If I'm understanding this correctly ...? Wave goodbye to aligned plaid shirts. So overrated anyways! |
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Post by stinky on Nov 11, 2016 8:54:00 GMT -6
I'll buy a virtual MiUSA aligned-plaid shirt for anyone who can point me to a media source that can provide me with a bias-free assessment of whether or not the TPP is beneficial to the US.
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Post by nate001 on Nov 11, 2016 9:30:34 GMT -6
I'll buy a virtual MiUSA aligned-plaid shirt for anyone who can point me to a media source that can provide me with a bias-free assessment of whether or not the TPP is beneficial to the US. As with most things, there seems to be some nuance to it. We Americans buy a lot of stuff that is made in China. It is very cheap to buy. The average American would probably not be able to own a 60" HDTV if it was made in the US. We have paid for that cheap stuff in manufacturing jobs. The question is, does America generally and the individual consumer specifically benefit more from a relatively high paying manufacturing job, or the ability to buy a bunch of cheap stuff? I don't have an answer to that, and I'm not sure I would trust an economist who claimed it was clearly better one way or another. The other question to ask: Is there/will there be a good paying (~$30/hr with benefits) job in manufacturing in the US even if all of Trump's plans are implemented? If these jobs exist (or are created) how many of them will there be? I would like an economy where people make stuff too (instead of a finance based economy), I just don't know if there are going to be a large number of highly paid jobs for folks to make stuff with a high school diploma +/- some trade school education. The days of a steel mill employing everyone in a town of 15,000 people may be over. I can't imagine what living on $10/hr would be like. It would be incredibly stressful. I hope the new administration can create more good paying manufacturing jobs. I don't know that backing out of TPP and NAFTA will necessarily fix it. Maybe it will. Who knows. |
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Post by stinky on Nov 11, 2016 9:56:56 GMT -6
Frankly, (and this may be a bit naive of me) I've always thought that a lot of the issues with manufacturing going overseas could be mitigated by a government sponsored campaign in conjunction with retailers to enforce the importance of buying MiUSA products as well as how spending a couple extra bucks for a shirt will cost more in the short term but put more money in your pocket long term.
Emphasize things like clothing and other small consumer goods, and expand that as attitudes change.
I've always felt that the very people who complain the loudest about mfg going overseas are the very same people who exclusively buy MiC items from Walmart because its either a few cents cheaper or it's logistically impossible to buy a certain product of US origin.
Folks are either conditioned to buy the absolutely rock-bottom priced item, or it is done out of necessity because they literally have to make a choice between feeding their family that day or spending an extra dollar.
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Post by stinky on Nov 11, 2016 9:59:40 GMT -6
Oh, and let us never forget that there are (were) US based clothing manufacturers that we supported that literally f*cked their employees and customers out of salaries and goods.
So there's that.
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Post by northcoast on Nov 11, 2016 10:07:15 GMT -6
Oh, and let us never forget that there are (were) US based clothing manufacturers that we supported that literally f*cked their employees and customers out of salaries and goods. So there's that. Yeah, I'm kinda in between with all this. I have been buying a ton of MiUSA but I'm not willing to give up on MiC yet. My spending though has been almost 80% MiUSA the past 2 years though, and the quality difference is noticeable. (* I forgot to parse out the EU stuff I have purchased.......) |
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Post by DigDug on Nov 11, 2016 10:16:01 GMT -6
The problem is our Consuming has gotten out of control.
It's not enough to have a 60" TV. We need that one and 3 or 4 others (one for each bedroom, kitchen, even the bathroom),
We now own 2+ cars, 3000sq ft+ homes and the things needed to fill them (decorate and maintain) Electronics galore, Gadgets of all kinds, and not forget Clothing, etc,etc,etc.
storage units have spouted up all over to help contain our stuff.
Back in the day, family's owned a reasonable home, one car, hand me down clothes, one corded phone (of course you had to rent it), 1 tv, mom cooked at home and dad washed the car and took care of the home.
Take for example yard work. It use to be that a guy owned one small lawn mower a rack and a broom. Now think of all the yard tools a guy needs. Leaf blower, riding tractor, weed wacker, power broom,power hedge trimmer, etc
We simple Consume to much. And don't have time to do much for ourselves so we hire others to do it. For example we don't even wash our cars anymore it's easier to drive through a car wash.
The American Dream use to mean Owning your own home, at some point poeple think that owning your home means you where able to get a morgage.
Just my 2 cents now worth 1 peso
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Post by bentin on Nov 11, 2016 10:34:06 GMT -6
Getting divorced and being forced to downsize taught me a lot about how little I really needed. Getting remarried and having a kid just returned the same amount of purchasing but altered the distribution.
Somewhere along the way, I did establish that fewer, nicer things is infinitely preferable to more, more, more.
Wearing my Oni today and typing this on a Chinese made phone. Drove a Japanese car to work and drinking coffee grown in Guatemala. My grinder was made in Malaysia, water kettle in China and the press in Pennsylvania.
It's too late to unwind our International dependence, but some Big Government help in reestablishing US manufacturing would be almost as welcome as Executive Pay Reform. Which the Oompa Loompa ain't going near.
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Post by gaseousclay on Nov 11, 2016 11:00:37 GMT -6
Getting divorced and being forced to downsize taught me a lot about how little I really needed. Getting remarried and having a kid just returned the same amount of purchasing but altered the distribution. Somewhere along the way, I did establish that fewer, nicer things is infinitely preferable to more, more, more. this is where i'm at. I've found that my tastes have evolved significantly in the past few years. when I first discovered raw denim it was all about how much I could get for as little money as possible. Nowadays it's more about getting fewer, nicer items even if that means paying a little more. Don't get me wrong, I still get bitten by the 'cheap' bug every once in awhile, especially since I'm no longer in a dual income household, but i've had to learn to space my purchases out rather than succumb to every sale I come across. These days I seem to be spending more money buying Transformers toys for my son that I do on clothing purchases for myself. |
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Post by stinky on Nov 11, 2016 11:16:39 GMT -6
The consumption argument is a "simpler life" argument, which I am all for, but the reality is that if it weren't for needless consumption, unemployment would be triple what it is now.
All of those people who buy too much shit, take their car to the dealer for "routine maintenance" when the light goes off, and has someone cut their grass while they are at work allow those of us who change our own oil, cut their own grass, live in modest sized homes (4 people in 1600 sq. ft), and use their electronics longer than 12 months (still rocking my LG G2, and I'm in IT) to live without an overwhelming fear of a cataclysmic economic collapse.
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How many of us would swap 2-3 pairs of so-so G's or LD's for a pair of IH's?
