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Post by Vincent on Nov 12, 2014 3:45:39 GMT -6
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Post by Vincent on Nov 12, 2014 4:09:47 GMT -6
By the way, this is what I call transparency. Rogue Territory Stealth Supply Jacket : imgur.com/CfMrywb |
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Post by jeffrx on Nov 12, 2014 9:06:56 GMT -6
My daughter helps me keep all this in perspective. I have my jeans hanging on hooks. I know the differences between the pairs and have an appreciation for the nuances: the weight, fabric feel, fit, hardware, selvedge, fades, imperfections, etc. So the little 10-year old simply says, on many occasions, "why do you have so many pairs of the same exact jeans?"
The counterargument is tough.
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Post by wisdom on Nov 12, 2014 9:25:43 GMT -6
jockohomo; maybe I didn't make my point clear enough with my last comment, but the article you just posted the link to is proving my point that I was trying to express earlier. Just because a denim is a Japanese or Italian denim it does not mean it is a high quality denim. Which is precisely why I think it would be beneficial for GUSTIN to disclose the source of their fabrics. I'm not saying that GUSTIN isn't sourcing their fabrics from Kuroki, Nihon Menpu, Kaihara, Candiani, etc..they very well could be. But the fact that they do not disclose that information makes me second guess the source and makes me a little uncertain of whether I am getting denim from "one of the finest mills in Japan". It's very contradictory to say you shouldnt believe everything you read and then in the same post say that you have no doubt that GUSTIN is sourcing their denims from the top mills because they say they are. This again proves the point I am making. It's obviously not a deal breaker to me, I have a good amount of GUSTIN jeans that I am very happy with, but it shows that the transparency isnt quite there with GUISTIN and brings up the question...why? If I was sourcing my denim from Kaihara, Nihon Menpu, etc...I would be screaming it from the mountain tops. It would be the first line in my product description; "Ickes denim made from the famous Nihon Menpu mill in Japan"...  Look, I could be completely wrong jockohomo, but I've enjoyed the discussion: ) I will have to admit I don't even remember what "point" you were trying to make. To tell you the truth, it kind of sounded more like whining to me especially given the fact that you bought umpteen pairs of Gustin jeans without a peep about where the denim came from. I can say that I don't rely on what Gustin says about the origin of their Japanese denim because it is not a deal breaker to me either. I said I do not have a reason to believe that they do not source their denim from some of the finest mills in Japan. I asked you to tell us why you might believe they are not, and to this point have not gotten an answer to that question. You did indicate that you are a very happy with your Gustin jeans just as I am. I guess the point I am trying to make is that no matter what they say, you, nor I, have the expertise to either prove or disprove their representation. So in the words of the former Senator from New York, "what difference does it make!!" I'd like to know, but it doesn't make enough of a difference to prevent me from buying any sweet fabric Gustin throws up there. I guess it starts from the fact that some of us just want to know.. when others provide this information and Gustin does not, it makes me wonder why. Anyone is free to draw conclusions about who I am because I admit to wanting to know what mill the fabric comes from but extend the same liberty to others who draw conclusions based upon Gustin's unwillingness to disclose their mills. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 9:38:04 GMT -6
My daughter helps me keep all this in perspective. I have my jeans hanging on hooks. I know the differences between the pairs and have an appreciation for the nuances: the weight, fabric feel, fit, hardware, selvedge, fades, imperfections, etc. So the little 10-year old simply says, on many occasions, "why do you have so many pairs of the same exact jeans?" The counterargument is tough. Smart girl that you have. Our view is clouded by our inner ego. 99% of the population cannot tell the difference between brands. My wife follows high fashion brands for the last 25 years and she cannot even tell the difference between my raw Indigo jeans from Gap, LVC, Lee, RRL and Gustin. They all look the same to her except the fit. She does prefer my 7 years old Lee 101z over the others because some of the detail. |
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Post by ickes on Nov 12, 2014 10:41:16 GMT -6
jeffrx; my daughters say the exact same thing 
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Post by ickes on Nov 12, 2014 10:50:22 GMT -6
@wils; in general I do agree with you but it's funny you mention it because I actually tested this theory once. A friend of mine was at my house once and she noticed all the jeans in my closet and we just started talking about it. she thought it was crazy I had so many pairs and I explained to her what raw selvedge denim was, etc..Upon initial glance she didn't really notice a difference with my raw selvedge denims compared to "regular" denims other than the starchiness to them. So then I handed her a pair and told her to just look them over real quick and she if notices anything...it only took her about 30 seconds and the two things she pointed out were how the belt loops are folded under the waistband and sewed in, and the bar tack. I was actually quite impressed and surprised. She didn't know that the bar tack was called a bar tack, but she noticed that there was reinforced stitching there.
Anyways, just surprised me that she noticed that. But yeah, @wils I agree...generally upon inital glance most people aren't going to notice a difference.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 11:19:29 GMT -6
i'm confused. we're all very quick to point out when we see G using a denim that's the same as another brand's, or when LD is using a denim that's the same as one that G has previously used (SH, Black2, Slate, Jade, DTB, PeachID, Okas...etc). i'm not sure how in one breath it can be matter of factly stated that the fabrics are the same while in another it's speculated that G is using lower quality sources...unless you're saying that everyone using those fabrics is also getting fabric from lower quality sources. i remember a time when people were actually defending G for not relinquishing this data. the logic given at that time was that G was posing a threat to more established brands and they would put pressure on G suppliers if they were aware of the relationships. this was seemingly given some weight when after G's first attempt at a heavyweight denim was thwarted when all of the fabric was purchased from their source. for me it's a point of interest. i'd absolutely like to know the mill, but not knowing doesn't make me doubt the quality (however how poorly it's sewn up might  ). |
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Post by davelewis on Nov 12, 2014 11:30:25 GMT -6
My daughter helps me keep all this in perspective. I have my jeans hanging on hooks. I know the differences between the pairs and have an appreciation for the nuances: the weight, fabric feel, fit, hardware, selvedge, fades, imperfections, etc. So the little 10-year old simply says, on many occasions, "why do you have so many pairs of the same exact jeans?" The counterargument is tough. "You will know in good time, Grasshopper." |
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Post by julian on Nov 12, 2014 12:48:35 GMT -6
Let's be honest, nobody - but nobody - really needs more than 7 pairs of jeans. Once you're at the point where you could quite easily wear a different pair each day of the week, further purchases have less to with jeans as clothing and far more to do with collecting something you've discovered you have an interest in.
It's not even like collecting trainers/sneakers, where there are countless different designs and colourways. Jeans are basically jeans (let's face it, most of us run a mile from any design features that make any pair *not* look like classic jeans) and, even now, for the most part they're either blue, black, grey or brown.
To me, it's a bit more along the lines of boots. I tend to prefer a certain look and style of boots and so I've got about 8 pairs that even someone with a reasonable level of interest in the subject would say are 'the same' (although, to be fair, 3 of them ARE the same, just different colours). Again, nobody really needs more than 3 or 4 pairs of boots, but nobody thinks it's weird to have far more than that.
I also think the big difference between producers such as Gustin and Lawless is that their model actively encourages people to collect denim - partly because of the wider than usual range of interesting fabrics and partly because of the price.
Not many of us would want to (or could) buy 10 pairs of Samurai jeans in a year, but plenty of people will buy that many (and more) from Gustin and/or Lawless.
This particular model of selling has started to produce a new type of buying/ownership pattern. In the past, the majority of people into raw selvedge would buy between one and three pairs and then wear the living hell out of them until they had to retire them. There are people on this forum that would struggle get to retirement point for all the jeans they've bought this year alone within the next 10 years.
Going back to the trainer thing, there's definitely a shift amongst some raw selvedge buyers/owners towards the whole 'boxfresh' mentality, where they actively want to have pairs to be able to wear that basically appear unworn. Nothing wrong with it... in fact, I kind of like that concept. It makes sense in one arena so I don't see why it wouldn't when it come to jeans.
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Post by jockohomo on Nov 12, 2014 13:28:22 GMT -6
i'm confused. we're all very quick to point out when we see G using a denim that's the same as another brand's, or when LD is using a denim that's the same as one that G has previously used (SH, Black2, Slate, Jade, DTB, PeachID, Okas...etc). i'm not sure how in one breath it can be matter of factly stated that the fabrics are the same while in another it's speculated that G is using lower quality sources...unless you're saying that everyone using those fabrics is also getting fabric from lower quality sources. i remember a time when people were actually defending G for not relinquishing this data. the logic given at that time was that G was posing a threat to more established brands and they would put pressure on G suppliers if they were aware of the relationships. this was seemingly given some weight when after G's first attempt at a heavyweight denim was thwarted when all of the fabric was purchased from their source. for me it's a point of interest. i'd absolutely like to know the mill, but not knowing doesn't make me doubt the quality (however how poorly it's sewn up might ). Those are some interesting , if not embarrassing, observations you have made. I chalk it up to the "that was then, this is now" syndrome with a healthy dose of agenda whiplash. I definitely sense a herd mentality, group-think environment on this board.
Another example of this would be the whining about a search feature on the old G community board, just think what fun we would have if this was in place today! Can you imagine the Mayor squirming to the beat??? Instead he is thanking his lucky stars.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 13:41:19 GMT -6
jockohomo i wouldn't go that far, i just think the existence of other options and competition allows everyone to be a bit more selective, critical, and perhaps demanding than when such options don't exist. i understand that to the extent of wanting mill sources, but not to the point of questioning the validity of those sources when that would have been laughed out of the room a few months ago.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 13:44:00 GMT -6
i'm confused. we're all very quick to point out when we see G using a denim that's the same as another brand's, or when LD is using a denim that's the same as one that G has previously used (SH, Black2, Slate, Jade, DTB, PeachID, Okas...etc). i'm not sure how in one breath it can be matter of factly stated that the fabrics are the same while in another it's speculated that G is using lower quality sources...unless you're saying that everyone using those fabrics is also getting fabric from lower quality sources. i remember a time when people were actually defending G for not relinquishing this data. the logic given at that time was that G was posing a threat to more established brands and they would put pressure on G suppliers if they were aware of the relationships. this was seemingly given some weight when after G's first attempt at a heavyweight denim was thwarted when all of the fabric was purchased from their source. for me it's a point of interest. i'd absolutely like to know the mill, but not knowing doesn't make me doubt the quality (however how poorly it's sewn up might ). Those are some interesting , if not embarrassing, observations you have made. I chalk it up to the "that was then, this is now" syndrome with a healthy dose of agenda whiplash. I definitely sense a herd mentality, group-think environment on this board.
Another example of this would be the whining about a search feature on the old G community board, just think what fun we would have if this was in place today! Can you imagine the Mayor squirming to the beat??? Instead he is thanking his lucky stars.
I just look at all 12 of your posts. Do you work for Gustin and related to them? Very short history here and all of your posts are either talking bad about Lawless or defending Gustin. Also, can you go to the new member section and introduced us on who you are. Btw, I would also interested on how you come up with the user name. |
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Post by jockohomo on Nov 12, 2014 14:10:58 GMT -6
Those are some interesting , if not embarrassing, observations you have made. I chalk it up to the "that was then, this is now" syndrome with a healthy dose of agenda whiplash. I definitely sense a herd mentality, group-think environment on this board.
Another example of this would be the whining about a search feature on the old G community board, just think what fun we would have if this was in place today! Can you imagine the Mayor squirming to the beat??? Instead he is thanking his lucky stars.
I just look at all 12 of your posts. Do you work for Gustin and related to them? Very short history here and all of your posts are either talking bad about Lawless or defending Gustin. Also, can you go to the new member section and introduced us on who you are. Btw, I would also interested on how you come up with the user name. Just a concerned consumer who sees a disturbing pattern here. I always wondered why all the gushing praise for Gustin on the old board by many of the Gustin detractors on this board. At that time I had some issues with Gustin products, but in every single instance my concerns were addressed to my complete satisfaction by them. I saw no need to air my complaints/issues in public since they were always more than willing to work with me. Of course, you and others don't feel this is the appropriate way to deal with vendors and have a predisposition to making wild accusations and never getting to a satisfactory conclusion since you find it more comforting to whine about it.
As for Lawless, I am waiting to see what happens in the next few months. As a person coming from a financial background I see flashing lights. I will keep my observations and conclusions to myself and hope for the best. I will say, I don't see the monolithic, giddy, cheerleading continuing forever since I do have some historical perspective relating to you guys.
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Post by Old26 on Nov 12, 2014 14:17:47 GMT -6
jockohomo I just look at all 12 of your posts. Do you work for Gustin and related to them? Very short history here and all of your posts are either talking bad about Lawless or defending Gustin. Also, can you go to the new member section and introduced us on who you are. Btw, I would also interested on how you come up with the user name. Just a concerned consumer who sees a disturbing pattern here. I always wondered why all the gushing praise for Gustin on the old board by many of the Gustin detractors on this board. At that time I had some issues with Gustin products, but in every single instance my concerns were addressed to my complete satisfaction by them. I saw no need to air my complaints/issues in public since they were always more than willing to work with me. Of course, you and others don't feel this is the appropriate way to deal with vendors and have a predisposition to making wild accusations and never getting to a satisfactory conclusion since you find it more comforting to whine about it.
As for Lawless, I am waiting to see what happens in the next few months. As a person coming from a financial background I see flashing lights. I will keep my observations and conclusions to myself and hope for the best. I will say, I don't see the monolithic, giddy, cheerleading continuing forever since I do have some historical perspective relating to you guys.
OK, before yet another thread goes into the crapper today, let's back off of the generalizations and personal attacks, OK? This goes for everyone, but specifically here to jockohomo. If you don't like the posts, content, or the membership here, that's fine. But if all you're here to do is to stir things up by making personal attacks, it's done. I'd hope that the gear that brought 150 folks here so far is enough to keep things civil and fun. Please? Thanks guys. Go have a latté or a beer, but no more personal jabs. |
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Post by jray on Nov 12, 2014 14:24:08 GMT -6
Jockohomo - here are my 2 cents for what it's worth. The community is made up of a bunch of people across the world who met one another through an appreciation of raw denim. This community was developed by a few of the guys so that we can discuss stuff we like, don't like, have in common, share thoughts, ideas and opinions and insights. It's supposed to be a place to enjoy. This isn't a place where we (typically) argue with one another or point fingers. it's a place to have fun discussions. I personally have no interest in what you think about anyones's predispositions....... I'm just sayin.
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Post by Griffin on Nov 12, 2014 15:11:03 GMT -6
Well. If a problem occurs once, and gets fixed, then all is ok. But if it continues to happen and after a while you look at a pile of clothes you spent 2k on and 80% have faults, it doesn't really matter that you got another pair for free, or store credits that you used on yet a pair that didn't fit. Gustin says they don't have a problem with size. All of us with more then 5 pairs can say for sure that they all measure different, from 1-3 sizes wrong. Yes G will compensate you somewhat, but cmon, you gotta understand that we want to talk to each-other about this? If I hadn't red about all others I would still be sitting hoping for my perfect next pair, just thinking I had bad luck on the others and that all will be good in the future. Now I know better and can decide to take the risk. I'm still not gonna be happy with 2 sizes to small tho. I gotta say that I have had so many minor problems with my backed stuff that I feel embarrassed to send Cody yet another mail. Its not fun anymore. I have selected the worst and gotten support on that and let the rest go. And lastly, the reason we "whine" is because we like Gustin. Most of us wants to be able to back stuff from them, they come up with some nice gear every so often. If we didn't like them and what they offer, we would just go forward and not look back. |
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Post by Old26 on Nov 12, 2014 15:24:58 GMT -6
Indeed - many of the guys here have earned the right to knock Gustin's continued sizing issues. Those are real, and the combined expenditures here of members is exceedingly high. We're not talking about one guy that bought one pair of pants and doesn't stop bitching.
The problem is, we've seen it, reported it, and been told it won't happen again.
Turns out not to be true, so that is a legitimate, systemic issue. But again, the best thing to do at this point is look elsewhere - like many have.
I will state that if others such as Lawless have similar challenges, this group is going to talk about it. It may seem that the "herd" here is in love with Lawless at the moment, and I think it's true - but for all the right reasons. Lawless and Roman are looking to do what we had hoped Gustin would do. We are all very excited to have someone who loves what he does, and looks to the community to help shape his offerings. If they can make this model work, I honestly can see buying the majority of my casual wardrobe from them going forward. But if I and others order a ton of gear that's messed up, expect a firestorm here. But as with others, it will be civil or it will be deleted.
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Post by davelewis on Nov 12, 2014 18:12:48 GMT -6
The challenge that I have is patiently waiting for my Lawless gear to get to my door. The cool thing is Roman has been able to design many different garments, and bring them to market in such short order, and my guess is that there will be less manufacturing issues because he is not outsourcing them.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 20:50:45 GMT -6
soo... any new arrivals? lol
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Post by matt on Nov 12, 2014 20:54:34 GMT -6
@wils; in general I do agree with you but it's funny you mention it because I actually tested this theory once. A friend of mine was at my house once and she noticed all the jeans in my closet and we just started talking about it. she thought it was crazy I had so many pairs and I explained to her what raw selvedge denim was, etc..Upon initial glance she didn't really notice a difference with my raw selvedge denims compared to "regular" denims other than the starchiness to them. So then I handed her a pair and told her to just look them over real quick and she if notices anything...it only took her about 30 seconds and the two things she pointed out were how the belt loops are folded under the waistband and sewed in, and the bar tack. I was actually quite impressed and surprised. She didn't know that the bar tack was called a bar tack, but she noticed that there was reinforced stitching there. Anyways, just surprised me that she noticed that. But yeah, @wils I agree...generally upon inital glance most people aren't going to notice a difference. Was this the friend who owner a wiener dog that happened to pee on said raw denim?  Yep, can't escape the wiener dog fades brah...(actually, you can -you're a moderator...feel free to strike from the record) |
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Post by ickes on Nov 12, 2014 21:19:49 GMT -6
matt; as a matter of fact it was!!!
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Post by exophobe on Nov 12, 2014 23:59:32 GMT -6
Japan Shine showed up today, and lemme tell you, it's not just a clever name. I'm a little afraid of these guys, cause they shimmer under indoor lighting, they may reflect and blind people in the sunlight. I will tell you, though, I don't think I've even seen anything quite like it.
I know you guys hate me for it by now, but I'm afraid I don't have any pictures just yet. For those curious, measured the waist and the hem (didn't wanna break out the calipers and go the full nine), on a 33 slim, the waist is 16 5/8ths across (for those short on the maths, this puts them at a 33.25 via Gustin measurement guide), the hem exactly 7.5, both legs. This denim feels pretty stretchy (not like spandex stretchy but, very pliable) so I'm not really too worried about the waist coming in .25 under.
Not trying them on tonight, but I had mentioned they were coming so I wanted to let you guys know they made it. Also... shiny as f!@k.
EDIT...
Okay I had to try them on. hand feel they're actually kind of rough, similar to the Heavy Americans I wore today. We'll see if I feel the same once it's time to go outside, but they actually look pretty cool. Very dark indigo that really does have a sort of sharkskin suit effect. The shine on the weft is really quite shiny, and it gives an interesting look to the cuff. This definitely isn't going to be a traditionalist pair, but the fit is spot-on for what I've come to expect from a Gustin slim. They're running pretty snug right now, but they will relax as they get some wear in them... I'm really curious what these will do as they fade, and I'm thinking of stacking them, though that usually lasts about half of one day when I finally wear a pair out, after which I usually cuff them up the inside of the leg, and they stay that way (which works to varying success - the Italian denims tend to respond really well to this).
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Post by exophobe on Nov 13, 2014 0:12:29 GMT -6
Regarding those concerned about the sudden switch from love of Gustin to harsh criticism of Gustin, there were some things that happened that several people took offense to, myself included. I know that I am slightly embarrassed for how I went after them, though I still stand behind my criticism. My customer service experience with them was not good because that's how I chose to interpret it, but a couple emails back and forth resolved them, so I hold no bad blood.
All that said, I think most of us have moved past the anger stage, and moved on to acceptance. So while I do apologize for my behavior in the early days of Gustin friends, I still stand behind what I've said, but will also admit I haven't addressed them directly with Gustin. When I felt I was being out of line, I realized that my issues were more of my perception than anything they had done, or any change in direction I thought they had took, which led me to the realization my anger wasn't entirely justified, and the reason I didn't go a step further to express this frustration to Gustin. I still enjoy all the clothes I have from them, look forward to the ones I haven't yet received, and check out the new releases every Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday.
In any event, since it's a part of the "early days" of this forum that won't go away, I thought it appropriate to mention for any new people that there was a period where we were very upset, and so it may seem hypocritical and a little bonkers to read the stuff that has gone on over here in regards to Gustin. I'm sure there's a standing perception that we've got a bone to pick with Gustin, so I just want to keep reiterating that that was not the intent, a number of us allowed our emotions to get the better of us whcih groupthinked us into angrily expressing our frustrations. This lambasting shouldn't, however, be considered acceptable behavior, and I think all of us that participated in it share some of the same embarrassment.
The simple fact of the matter is that we all seem to love the intricacies of denim a little too much, and we can get passionate about it. It's not beneficial, however, to make these threads combative to any person or company, and I think we're actively working towards ensuring it doesn't get that way again. If I'm speaking for too many of us, I apologize for overstepping, but I think it's important to continue to stop these threads, because it makes it a place where we can actually learn and grow as long as we're not beating each other (or companies) down.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 8:45:24 GMT -6
Oh man the shines were calling to me but I never pulled the trigger. Any pictures yet?
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). 
Yep, can't escape the wiener dog fades brah...(actually, you can -you're a moderator...feel free to strike from the record)