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Post by matt on Sept 26, 2014 10:49:42 GMT -6
Since Lawless isn't planning on a consistent drop strategy (i.e. Gustin's Tuesday/Thursday/some Saturday drops), Roman mentions new fabrics rolling in if you bring it up during conversation. And he apparently adds more as it's photographed and added to the back end of the website.
The news if you missed it in the Yahoo clusterf@ck group (I say that with love), is that Lawless has two new denims coming in the next few months (not weeks, but think closer to late fall/winter):
22/23 oz.
28 oz.
Yes! A 28 oz. and he told me (at the time during the KS campaign) that he's not planning to charge more than $100 for it. I would assume with the new pricing models, that it's not going to be much more than $79 if the price varies at all. I asked about blowing up needles and he's sewing these (along with the 17's and 18.5's) with the machines he uses to sew up the heavy denim and leather jackets.
The denim is coming in from one of the Japanese mills, and while he's got some arrangement to get first dibs on new incoming denims, the Japanese are in high demand right now and slowing down on delivery dates (as per Roman last week).
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Post by Old26 on Sept 26, 2014 10:59:15 GMT -6
$100 for a 28oz? That's just nuts. BUT - I gotta see some of this stuff first. Just a bit "sounds too good to be true" to me...
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Post by Dave Lewis on Sept 26, 2014 11:07:06 GMT -6
Thats kind of what I thought also, but hey, maybe he's a realy groundbreaker.
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Post by matt on Sept 26, 2014 11:08:21 GMT -6
Fair response. I think we all have the wait and see mentality here. Keep in mind, us Kickstarters are price locked at $79 (or whatever he lowers it to) for 5 years. He laughed when I mentioned the $140-179 price that G was offering on their heaviest and proceeded to explain to me how significant the mark up is on denim.
I'm being optimistic just based on firsthand experience with the dude and not hesitating to ask the questions we all ask in the communities.
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Post by ickes on Sept 26, 2014 12:13:26 GMT -6
Fair response. I think we all have the wait and see mentality here. Keep in mind, us Kickstarters are price locked at $79 (or whatever he lowers it to) for 5 years. He laughed when I mentioned the $140-179 price that G was offering on their heaviest and proceeded to explain to me how significant the mark up is on denim. I'm being optimistic just based on firsthand experience with the dude and not hesitating to ask the questions we all ask in the communities. that's real talk right there. Look, I love G and what they've done but I just don't imagine that a SF local could walk in to the G office and talk to Josh Gustin and get that open of a conversation or get that type if info. Roman seems straight up so far and that means a lot to me. Time will tell |
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Post by Winterland on Sept 26, 2014 12:18:58 GMT -6
Yes the proof will be when we get some pictures and reviews from the Kickstarter customers or whoever gets their orders first.
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Post by Mattbert on Sept 26, 2014 12:43:00 GMT -6
Has anyone local to the Lawless brick and mortar store (matt?) been in and actually seen or handled the product or the raw materials? Just wondering how they compare to Gustin's in terms of character and quality. Granted, it's not quite fair to compare yet because Lawless is just getting started. But so far I haven't seen anything on their site with that wow factor that some of the Gustin offerings have.
I figured some of Gustin's more expensive denims are priced the way they are not necessarily because the selvedge itself costs 50-75% more than no-frills standard indigo from Cone or one of the well-known Japanese mills, but because there's a certain amount of overhead associated with (a) tracking down the more unusual stuff and (b) getting a purchase order on it before your competitors do. So there's something akin to a finder's fee that's baked into those $120+ campaigns.
I'm not an expert by any means, though, so maybe I'm just rationalizing. Certainly there's some "scarcity markup" going on simply because any vendor can get away with it when they're offering something perceived to be rare or exclusive. Fair enough. But there's usually also a legitimate additional cost involved in bringing those rare or exclusive items to market.
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Post by Mattbert on Sept 26, 2014 12:49:28 GMT -6
$100 for a 28oz? That's just nuts. BUT - I gotta see some of this stuff first. Just a bit "sounds too good to be true" to me... That's about where I'm at. Factor in the cost of all that customization they're offering, and jeez, I dunno. Maybe this guy is just a f!@king zen master of logistics and tracking a squillion production details throughout the process. He must also have some seriously reliable sewers because he's giving them so, so many more opportunities to f!@k something up than Gustin does. |
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Post by Winterland on Sept 26, 2014 12:50:35 GMT -6
Good question Matt. Ok whoever lives nearbye go for a Lawless visit and report back.
You don't like their workshirt Matt?
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Post by Old26 on Sept 26, 2014 12:53:59 GMT -6
$100 for a 28oz? That's just nuts. BUT - I gotta see some of this stuff first. Just a bit "sounds too good to be true" to me... That's about where I'm at. Factor in the cost of all that customization they're offering, and jeez, I dunno. Maybe this guy is just a f!@king zen master of logistics and tracking a squillion production details throughout the process. He must also have some seriously reliable sewers because he's giving them so, so many more opportunities to f!@k something up than Gustin does. I've chatted with him too - even went as far as telling him I was pondering quitting my 6-fig IT job to come make some clothing with him! I'm getting into semi-serious territory here with this thought. Instead of waiting on someone else to make what I want/need, do it myself. Wife is 100% behind me, but I have zero experience. So, we'll see. But I'm not against the idea to be honest... |
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Post by matt on Sept 26, 2014 13:01:38 GMT -6
I have been to both brick & mortar stores - their first storefront was in the trendy Cityscape Phoenix, and they closed that and moved a few blocks over (by the Az Diamondbacks ballpark) to the actual production facility.
Regarding the fabrics - I've seen/felt the swatches (pics from the LD website) and seen/felt the rolls of fabric. I probably wouldn't have backed the 18.5s but Roman mentioned that they were super soft and I could see/handle the fabrics.
Roman's quite knowledgeable, for example - the Italians are extremely precise with their denim and not creating waste. You'll see near precision in the Italian selvedge IDs - it's a sign of quality.
This isn't his first foray into raw denim. His prior storefront served as a provider to custom denim lovers (aka wealthy people looking for custom denim - the Scottsdale folks, LA people, etc) and he charges more for that touch than he does this KS with the same principles.
To Mattbert's thoughts on the upcharges from G - while there is a scarcity factor to some offerings (Pima or other deadstock), heavier denim is offered all over the board and most is coming from the same handful of mills (Kurabo, Nikon Menpu, Kaihara) - it's not scarce, it's in high-demand. I am not going to slight Gustin for their model - they exposed and educated a bunch of people who love denim and in turn, dictated how we view the "process" - a campaign that increase a few dollars from the first release to the second could be influenced by their costs (outsourced sewing, not getting first dibs on in-demand denims, etc), but it's also based on how they tell us "it's rare so it's more expense". (It's the t-bone/butcher line from Tommy Boy that's coming to mind here)
Both Ickes and I (and I think someone else from the G forum) are local in Phoenix. I've been trying to get Icksey to join me on a trip to LD. Anyone else wants to meet up or send me in to ask more questions, I don't mind doing that.
I've been offering up some marketing ideas to Lawless (at least from a local/community involvement/branding perspective) - I've got education/decade+ doing that and I figure it might get me a free pair!
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Post by Mattbert on Sept 26, 2014 13:09:52 GMT -6
Good question Matt. Ok whoever lives nearbye go for a Lawless visit and report back. You don't like their workshirt Matt? Er, which Matt? I'm not a fan, no. Heavy, stiff fabric plus a close-fitting cut equals a no-go in my book. But denim shirting just isn't for me, generally speaking. For heavy shirts, I much prefer chambray or canvas or wool. For real manual labor, it's usually just a ratty old t-shirt or something. I sweat easily and profusely, especially where I live now. If it's actually cold enough for me to want long sleeves while working, I honestly prefer synthetics. I gotta have something that breathes, wicks, and moves freely. |
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Post by matt on Sept 26, 2014 13:10:27 GMT -6
Me - Matt(sans Bert)
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Post by Winterland on Sept 26, 2014 13:20:04 GMT -6
Oh yes we have 2 Matts. Yes Mattbert. I like them for some reason. My black Iron Heart western shirt is a beast but I love it. I want to get a heavy indigo denim. Thatis why I had interest in Lawless as Iron Heart is very expensive. I haven't pulled the trigger on a Gustin one yet. I got a good deal on mine used. |
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Post by Old26 on Sept 26, 2014 13:20:40 GMT -6
Too many Matt's here. There is now a moratorium on "Matt". Carry on.  |
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Post by Mattbert on Sept 26, 2014 13:27:54 GMT -6
To Mattbert's thoughts on the upcharges from G - while there is a scarcity factor to some offerings (Pima or other deadstock), heavier denim is offered all over the board and most is coming from the same handful of mills (Kurabo, Nikon Menpu, Kaihara) - it's not scarce, it's in high-demand. I am not going to slight Gustin for their model - they exposed and educated a bunch of people who love denim and in turn, dictated how we view the "process" - a campaign that increase a few dollars from the first release to the second could be influenced by their costs (outsourced sewing, not getting first dibs on in-demand denims, etc), but it's also based on how they tell us "it's rare so it's more expense". (It's the t-bone/butcher line from Tommy Boy that's coming to mind here) I was thinking more of the unusual colors and textures (unusual to this denim newbie's eyes anyway) that Gustin offers sometimes. As you say, heavy is heavy is heavy. And frankly not all that interesting to me. I'm more keen on stuff like the taupe and umbers, silks, NIxP, and this new "antique" one. The oxbloods and herringbones and some of the others would fall into this category too, although I decided they were not for me personally. As far as I can tell, that stuff isn't as widely available as standard indigo heavyweight denim. I certainly haven't seen anything like it elsewhere at Gustin's price point, let alone Lawless' price point. |
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Post by Old26 on Sept 26, 2014 13:30:06 GMT -6
My friend who owns couple clothing stores in Asia told me Gustin jeans should be pretty cheap to made because it has no expensive options or effects such as sandblasting, sanding or dremel. It will be around $2 to make in China and $1 in India and my guess for Sky will be around $15/pair. Cone denim wholesale is about $5-8/yard and it takes 2 yard of selvedge to make a pair of jeans. Therefore, Lawless can still make a tidy profit for $68/pair. here is the website that many of these KS get their fabric, including Gustin. www.pacificbluedenims.com/index.php?p=catgp&id=16I know this for a very long time and that is why I no longer buy any Gustin jeans. Sorry to pop people bubble but that is nothing really cool about what Gustin is doing, especially on Jeans. Btw, Gustin is making great profit on those $150 to $199 range jeans. That is probably why Lawless was saying the markup. Those "special fabric" may cost more but not $50/yard more. Well, you can take this info and apply it to lots of things. Jewelry and watches and clothing are notoriously marked-up. But point taken. I'm only in for one really expensive pair thus far, and imagine the Iron Heart markup! Unreal.  |
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Post by Old26 on Sept 26, 2014 13:43:19 GMT -6
I've chatted with him too - even went as far as telling him I was pondering quitting my 6-fig IT job to come make some clothing with him! I'm getting into semi-serious territory here with this thought. Instead of waiting on someone else to make what I want/need, do it myself. Wife is 100% behind me, but I have zero experience. So, we'll see. But I'm not against the idea to be honest... Not a bad idea. As I stated in my last post, Gustin is making great profit on those truly passionate denim head. When people compare Gustin bags to Filson who built their brand for over 100 years to get to today's price point, to me, Gustin found a niche to slowly develop a value delusion with a group of very passionate buyers that are not very price sensitive. I was in IT and product management for a very long time but now in Marketing. If Lawless executes correctly using the same Gustin's scarcity theory, they can beat Gustin in it's own game. Gustin current mishaps on QA and the high price point (example, new duffel and workshirt) are definitely having a negative effect already. My guess is they start realized that and that is why the new Indigo workshirt and Chambray shirt prices are already adjusted downward. Gustin was getting a bit greedy and thought they have the market all by itself. Competition is a bitch. Yup. But for me, just like with G-Unit, I need to see the products shipping and the reviews of cats I know first. It's nice to have options, and I'm open minded, so we'll see. OTOH, I may just quit and go it alone! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2014 13:55:24 GMT -6
My guess is they start realized that and that is why the new Indigo workshirt and Chambray shirt prices are already adjusted downward. Gustin was getting a bit greedy and thought they have the market all by itself. Competition is a bitch. i wonder if that's the case, or just price fluctuation based on materials used in those campaigns. the new workshirt is only a few dollars less than the indigo stripe and chambray workshirts were, and it's made from cone denim which tends to be cheaper for their jeans offerings as well. the new striped chambrays are i think the lightest they've offered, which may explain the lower cost as well. somehow i don't think we've seen the end of some price creep from Gustin. i think some might be due to cost adjustments on their part...but mostly i think they're figuring out what their customer base are willing to pay. |
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Post by ickes on Sept 26, 2014 14:00:31 GMT -6
To Mattbert's thoughts on the upcharges from G - while there is a scarcity factor to some offerings (Pima or other deadstock), heavier denim is offered all over the board and most is coming from the same handful of mills (Kurabo, Nikon Menpu, Kaihara) - it's not scarce, it's in high-demand. I am not going to slight Gustin for their model - they exposed and educated a bunch of people who love denim and in turn, dictated how we view the "process" - a campaign that increase a few dollars from the first release to the second could be influenced by their costs (outsourced sewing, not getting first dibs on in-demand denims, etc), but it's also based on how they tell us "it's rare so it's more expense". (It's the t-bone/butcher line from Tommy Boy that's coming to mind here) I was thinking more of the unusual colors and textures (unusual to this denim newbie's eyes anyway) that Gustin offers sometimes. As you say, heavy is heavy is heavy. And frankly not all that interesting to me. I'm more keen on stuff like the taupe and umbers, silks, NIxP, and this new "antique" one. The oxbloods and herringbones and some of the others would fall into this category too, although I decided they were not for me personally. As far as I can tell, that stuff isn't as widely available as standard indigo heavyweight denim. I certainly haven't seen anything like it elsewhere at Gustin's price point, let alone Lawless' price point. Lawless actually had quite a few unique fabrics on their KS. A beige/tan, a brown that is the downtown brown fabric, a green, some blackxblack, an IndigoxBrown....I might be missing some. I'm sold on them as much as I could be at this point without actually owning any product yet. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2014 14:01:58 GMT -6
i wonder if that's the case, or just price fluctuation based on materials used in those campaigns. the new workshirt is only a few dollars less than the indigo stripe and chambray workshirts were, and it's made from cone denim which tends to be cheaper for their jeans offerings as well. the new striped chambrays are i think the lightest they've offered, which may explain the lower cost as well. somehow i don't think we've seen the end of some price creep from Gustin. i think some might be due to cost adjustments on their part...but mostly i think they're figuring out what their customer base are willing to pay. I agree. things may change if LD can make a $69 shirt in basic denim that is comparable to Gustin's workshirt. OH... they can also make it in Old26 size with contract stitching. For end customer, I am excited. |
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Post by ickes on Sept 26, 2014 14:08:19 GMT -6
guys...another thing to consider about the question of how does Lawless do this so cheaply.....compare San Francisco to Phoenix as far as the cost of living and labor wages. I think everyone knows SF has a high cost of living and is notoriously expensive.....where Phx is extremely affordable which is why so many people relocate to Phx from Cali....and from all over the country for that matter.
My point is that I would wager Romans (Lawless) labor expenses, and quite possibly a lot of his business expenses, are much lower than Gustins.
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Post by Old26 on Sept 26, 2014 14:10:53 GMT -6
Yeah, for sure AZ is cheaper than the crazy SF on all counts! I'm excited to see what LD can do for sure. Just not jumping in on something else new right now without some evidence of success. I have a $1500 jacket in the pipelines and Ill be waiting at least 1.5 years for it!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2014 14:27:22 GMT -6
Yeah, for sure AZ is cheaper than the crazy SF on all counts! I'm excited to see what LD can do for sure. Just not jumping in on something else new right now without some evidence of success. I have a $1500 jacket in the pipelines and Ill be waiting at least 1.5 years for it! 1.5yrs for real? i'm sure it's a classic piece, but with such a wait are you at all concerned about how your body composition or even tastes might shift over that time? |
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Post by matt on Sept 26, 2014 14:52:30 GMT -6
Getting back on track here to Mattbert's concerns/questions - I will say that all of the Lawless denim swatches are true to form (no artificial lighting, camera adjustments, etc.) what you see is what you get. If you guys need me to do more investigative reporting - let me know.
I will be posting all pics/measurements of my KS here once they come through (Roman said my 18.5s are already being cut).
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